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April 01, 2007

Comments

A.R.Yngve

Now, I have read most of Miller's work from THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (1986) and onward, and Miller seems fully aware of the fascism issue...

He brings it up in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, in which TV pundits expressly call Batman a "fascist" and there is much debate about his psychological issues. This of course makes the story more interesting.

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS also features a very violent confrontation between Batman and his archenemy The Joker, who looks very camp, uses a (deadly) lipstick and calls Batman "Darling".

(Miller, in an interview, actually said that his version of The Joker is a "homophobic nightmare" for whom "death IS sex"!)

So these issues have been brought up in his earlier work -- only better and with more (apparent?) depth than in "300".

Jonathan McCalmont

I think the film does a better job of touching on these issues than the 300 comic. The comic plays it largely straight (heh) but the film just lets rip.

I agree with you that these ideas are pretty much in all of Miller's work.

What is interesting about his relationship with fascism is how he'll happily admit that Batman is a fascist and drape him in the rhetoric of the ubermensch myth (Miller's Batman is a proper Nietszchean superman) BUT he'll also set him up as the opposite of the apple-pie authoritarianism of Superman and, in the later DKR books, he even seems to make Batman a hero of anti-globalisation.

So I think the extent to which Miller is actually deploying this as part of a knowingly subversive agenda is questionable. I think he just writes a certain way and is well aware that people class his work, and in fact his medium, have fascistic tendencies.

To be honest, I found these tendencies almost unbearable in Sin City where the sex and violence seemed to be more about childish transgression than part of any real agenda. 300, on the other hand, seems to have quite a clear and subversive agenda.

I don't know... I just really enjoyed 300's OTTness, far more than I enjoyed the comic or previous adaptations of Miller's work.

A.R.Yngve

I haven't seen the "300" film -- and since I didn't really like the graphic novel, I probably never will.

SIN CITY must be a watershed in Miller's career -- not just how it eventually made him a Hollywood success, but its extreme stylization and paring down of the characters. He got a lot of flak for it from some critics.

If there's any agenda I can think of in SIN CITY, it's a deep hatred of the Catholic Church:

1. The antihero Marv murders a corrupt priest in a confessional booth (the priest is played by Frank Miller in the movie!);

2. Marv murders a corrupt Cardinal who has indulged in cannibalism of the city's prostitutes.

In the letter-column of one of his comic-books, Miller dropped the clue that he's a lapsed Catholic. Make of that what you will...
;-)

Jonathan McCalmont

There was also the stuff about how lesbians just haven't met the right man and how it's okay to "fall in love" with under-aged girls because they grow up to be whores anyway.

SCG

Great review, Jonathan. It's the only one I've seen yet that makes me want to actually watch the film.

And I love the line "everyone wants to be a fascist because everyone wants to fuck their mother."

About the comment right above this one, though: isn't the former point expressed by the ultimate thug, the absolute extreme of testosterone machismo, and thereby instantly undermined? Why would someone like Marv understand lesbianism? She could have any man she wants, he thinks, because he's so preoccupied with the fact that he can't have anyone he wants. And hence his obsession with Goldie.

As regards your second point: not sure what you're referring to, but if it's Willis's character I don't think that's the point. Willis protects this little girl who signifies innocence in an otherwise dark and twisted place. His desire to protect her from the sins and cruelties of the City is his only reason to live. And yet when he meets her as an adult, this is kind of inverted, because her innocence has come to represent a further sort of temptation to the corruption of the city.

Okay, these ideas might be expressed quite badly as I've not had much sleep, but that's a couple of kneejerk idea/responses. Certainly not trying to defend a lot of what is deeply distasteful about Sin City, but I think these sort of readings are just as valid as taking it as face value. Not seen 300 but I wonder if the same so OTT in its crudeness that it comes out as subversive isn't a reasonable analysis of both films.

Gonna shut up now, pretty sure I'm making no sense...

Hi SCG --

Thanks for the praise :-) when I checked my email this morning there was another comment by someone who clearly took my review to be critical and accused me of being a bed wetter and having only been potty-trained at the age of five. As I was half-asleep and in no mood to be trifled with I deleted it, but I regret that now as it was just wondrously incoherent, if a bit harsh seeing as my review is a positive one.

As for Marv - Is Marv not supposed to be a sympathetic character? I thought the point of Marv was that he was a product of a corrupt society that mistreated and brutalised him and rejected him despite the fact that he's clearly honourable. His physical appearance is fully in keeping with the Ubermensch vibe as he is ugly by the standards of our corrupt world, thereby making him virtuous. That's how I read him anyway, so I'm not sure if his not being able to grasp lesbianism is any kind of "good thing".

As for Willis' character, you may actually be right and I was being uncharitable. Still, even if you are correct there's some dodgy sexual politics going on there as the little girl is a textbook example of a madonna/whore complex.

Good points though, thanks for the input.

PAT

LOL Madonna/whore complex, thats funny stuff. The story was okay not that weak! But watch this at http://boxsweeper.com . Its a site just like tvlinks but better!

S.M. Stirling

"As Conan puts it “to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women”.

-- actually, that's a quote from Temujin (aka Genghis Khan), a well-known Mongol warlord of the medieval period.

S.M. Stirling

And I'd be a bit more cautious about quoting Foucault, since his radical antinominianism had, to put it mildly, a bit of an agenda behind it.(*)

When Foucault was advised that his sexual habits were dangerous, he replied that he 'refused to submit to the doctors' discourse of power'. The results were... not happy.

As the saying goes, reality is the virus that will kill you whether you believe in it or not.

(*) and he was also rather distressingly given to simply making things up to support his arguments and passing them off as research.

Jonathan McCalmont

SM, thanks for dropping by :-)

I agree with both of your points, though I seem to remember that the original Temujin quote also featured something about wearing your enemy's skin as an undershirt.

I also accept that Foucault is an unreliable source, though you have to credit him with a lack of intellectual dishonesty in his final days... he believed that AIDS was a social construct and acted accordingly.

However, I think that he's quite correct that medicine has, over the years, been subject to "political bias" and the response to a lot of alternate lifestyles is a good example of this type of behaviour.

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