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July 09, 2007

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Comments

Serdar

"What I am suggesting is that people are not just poorly educated and ignorant of science; more and more people define themselves in terms of rejecting not only the contents of scientific knowledge but the methods of thought and reasoning used in science and the language surrounding them is not about the correctness of people's beliefs but rather about being tolerant of people's beliefs regardless of how toxic and false they might be."

I could not agree more. I am constantly stunned by the people I meet who are not stupid by any stretch, but who seem to define themselves by how strongly they can resist modernity in some form. Science gets singled out for being "dogmatic", "monomaniacal", "tunnel vision", "authoritarian", and worst of all "Western". Comments about how this dogmatic, monomaniacal, tunnel-vision, authoritarian, Western discipline provided them with the medium from which to hurl forth their irrational idiocity typically go over their heads, or are greeted with snide comebacks.

It's virtually impossible to talk to such people in any substantive way about why they hate such things, because they seem to be defining themselves primarily by the fact that they resist something -- typically an easy, safe, tired target like "science" (or "technology"), without a germ of thought as to what that kind of resistance really entails, or requires, or what it would really involve giving up.

It's an argument I've had many times before in many different contexts, and it rarely changes. I'm fully aware of the fact that our civilization has come at a cost; so are a great many other people. I am also aware that it has come with many benefits, several of which probably kept me from dying in a very ugly way when I was younger.

It's always easy to define yourself by what you don't want, because then you can appeal to other people's senses of dissatisfaction and alienation. But it's a lousy way to build a world-view.

A.R.Yngve

When poseurs make silly "Opposed-To-Western-Society" statements, then challenge them to be consistent and opt out of said society!

Poseur: "I am opposed to the soulless technology which is ruining our planet."

You: "But of course! And you should live by those words, as an example to others! First, let's get rid of those soulless Western eyeglasses, they only obscure your natural vision. Then throw away that shallow mobile phone, and the asthma spray, and all that other evil Western technology..."

Poseur: "Are you insinuating something?"

You: "What, me? Nooo..."
;-P

Jonathan McCalmont

I must admit, that I think it takes a spectacular degree of stupidity to sit in front of a computer and argue against science. In front of a COMPUTER that wouldn't even be possible were in not for our understanding of Quantum Mechanics.

As Dawkins says, show me a relativist in a plane at 40,000 feet and I'll show you a hypocrite.

Patrick H

Handy tip for parents reading Jonathon's blog (ho ho!):

We cut those posters up and the kids stick the pictures in their scrap books.

Also, I'm not sure if the US SF = light/UK SF = dark thing always stands up to close analysis. The US produced Kornbluth & Pohl, PKD, Alfred Bester, Kurt Vonnegut and the cyber-punks, after all, while the UK's most famous SF writer is Arthur C Clarke and Whyndham produced reams of pulpy gumpf under the John Beynon psued before the war. I think it's more to do with a British attitude to science (ironically!) as "trade" that means there are fewer British writers of the Campbellian school. I dunno, I'm shooting from the hip, but I think there are other factors involved than just cynical old blighty.

P

Jonathan McCalmont

Scrap Books? Aw... how cute. "Daddy's finished another bottle of vodka, can we put the label in our scrap books?"

I agree that the light/dark distinction is simplistic but could you honestly imagine a British drama that was as upbeat and sentimental about politics as the West Wing? even proper British political dramas have tended to be about corruption or under-handed scheming.

I think the fact that we, as a nation, seem to prefer comedy to drama as a means of examining our politics says something about how cynical a society Britain is.

You're right about science being considered "Trade" though. I think it goes some way to explaining why the new wave (largely concerned with making SF more arty) came primarily from the UK.

Serdar

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure it takes stupidity per se to be hypocritical about science. I think it just takes the same bullheadedness -- stubborn insouciance -- that it takes to remain studiedly ignorant about anything at all.

Something else comes to mind, too. Those of us who understand science at least better than trivially know that it's an overarching methodology for garnering knowledge. It's not a set of facts, but sets of explanations for why those facts are the way they are. As the facts change, so do those explanations. But most people don't see it that way -- they see science as some kind of arrogant arbiter of What Is and What Is Not, and how dare anyone tell THEM what's real and what's just a twinkle in the mind's eye!

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