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August 03, 2007

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Ren

You didn't already think that the Other is everyone else we meet? I guess we really *are* different... people are stranger when you are strange ;-) Unfortunately humans have a propensity for slapping labels and/or diagnoses on people "not like us" (e.g. American Psycho, Speed of Dark). It would be interesting to see a story where all characters are "not like the protagonist" (including, perhaps, the reader) and nobody has any conditions. Maybe more interesting if the protagonist's own identity slowly got eroded by the Other within during the course of the story until he or she finally achieved total alienation and had no identity left. Perhaps not uplifting, but interesting.

Serdar

There is a great deal to respond to here, although I don't think I can do it in the course of a reply post. Look for a follow-up on my own site.

Jonathan McCalmont

RenFayre - I do think that other people are Other but not necessarily in a profound philosophical way.

You're right that this would make for quite a good story. Indeed, one of the thing that frequently annoys me is when alien mindsets are represented more as different beliefs or emotional responses... not completely different ways of thinking. Serial Killer stories are particularly prone to this somewhat weirdly.

Serdar - Fair enough... I shall take a look :-)

A.R.Yngve

OK, so Jonathan's thought processes *might* be fundamentally different from mine, and ours in turn might be fundamentally different from Peter Watts'...

... but what matters most, is the consensus we create -- our "shared reality" if you like. Societies function (more or less) because different people agree on certain basic rules and laws (more or less).

Same thing with interaction between individuals. We form a consensus on how to talk, behave, and interpret each other. In my view, this consensus is of much greater importance than what's actually happening inside our brains.

Language is the supreme determining part of this consensus: If we couldn't even agree on what words and sentences meant (including sign language!), interaction would be impossible.

I would even go so far as to state: We're not humanity. Language is humanity. (Do you think language cares which animal it's hitching a ride on? If cows could speak and write, they'd become human.)

And here's the big challenge: We're forcing our consensus upon all other animals on this planet. Year after year, century after century, we're forcing other animals to see our books, our newspapers, listen to our radio, watch our television, follow our routines, hear us talk, live in our cities...

...is it any wonder we suspect they're getting smarter? They probably are.

A small example: as I was sitting on a train the other day, I looked out the window and noticed something: A cluster of tiny winged insects -- gnats, maybe -- clung to the outside surface of the window. As the train picked up speed, one by one the insects were blown off.

Why did they cling to the window, at great risk of being torn apart, instead of just taking off when the train started to move? Were these insects using our trains to commute?
:-S

Jonathan McCalmont

There was a theory a while back that London pigeons were using the underground to get around... the truth was somewhat more mundane I think.

You're right that, pragmatically, we have a "standard model" for human psychology that allows us not only the communicate with others but also to guess about other people's inner states and motivations.

However, if we're dealing with characterisation in a book, particularly if something is written in the first person, you don't want it to be all about that standard model... you want it to be realistic.

David Harmon

This note got really long, but I'm going to post it anyway... I'd like to insert that I don't agree that a non-conscious intelligence would necessarily be sociopathic, and the reason I think so is precisely the multilayer structure I'm describing.

I'd say that "Folk Psychology" represents a toolset granted us by our evolutionary history. It almost certainly has at least three layers, each operating at a corresponding layer of our mental structures:

(1) Instincts: These produce both actions and emotional responses, which turn out to be surprisingly important for cognition in general. I believe that humans have a disrupted version of the primate corpus of instinct. The effect seems to be that we individually "choose" many options from across the known primate behavior range, plus a few. Even so, some selections are clearly dominant -- humans always form tribe-like groupings, for example. Much of our dominance and courting behavior seems heavily underlaid with instinctive responses.

(2) Prepared learning: A good deal of the "choices" for human "ur-instincts" are implemented by way of "prepared learning", or developmental switches. Thus the effects of childhood abuse and neglect are not just a matter of "learning the wrong lessons", but of developmental responses to a socially hostile environment, and thus difficult to affect at a later developmental stage. Many of the switches can of course be tipped by internal (genetic) factors, which is why temperament is quite heritable.

3) Social Learning: One of the true human innovations, is that a good deal of our mental development has been "outsourced" from the individual entirely, to reside in the aggregate state of the community. Any stable society will have a superstructure of "culture" which helps to maintain the key social patterns and behavior of that culture. This includes proven techniques for making prepared-learning choices come out "the right way" (most of the time), and also social mechanisms for dealing with the unruly.

A basic part of this last is the interpretation of people's behavior, and that includes the more culture-dependent parts of the "locally canonical" Folk Psychology. (Had to come back to that eventually. ;-) ) Note that the "evolutionary target" here isn't whether the FP is "right" or even "useful", but whether the actions it prompts will help maintain a status quo which supports the FP!

Jonathan McCalmont

I agree with you about sociopathy not being a logical result of lack of sentience.

Traditionally when genre writers wanted to portray another species or race they'd reach for the anthropology text book or pull out a few national stereotypes.

Now I think that's fallen slightly by the way-side and now writers reach for the psychology textbook and pick out a mental illness. Sociopathology's just an easily recognisable example of something that's mentally "other".

Your points about the nature of learning are well made. After all, finding out how things REALLY work is a profoundly unnatural way of thinking about the world. I read a really interesting article about early modern France that explained how in a pre-literary culture the bulk of people relied entirely on these little aphorisms. Hundreds of them on a par with "Red Sky at night, shepherd's delight".

David Harmon

Now I think that's fallen slightly by the way-side and now writers reach for the psychology textbook and pick out a mental illness.

Feh. I wonder how long until we see "autistic" aliens (aside from the gorilla Koko and her ilk). I'd also like to point out that James Blish's A Case Of Conscience did a brief, but fairly good, take on the idea of "aliens without morality", and that was waytheheck back....

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