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Nick

> mostly middle class Western Christians who suffered some repression initially but who can still vote and worship in private resort to terrorism far more quickly than Muslims who endured much much harsher conditions for much longer periods of time before turning to violence

Depends what you mean by Islamic terrorism, surely? Al-Qaeda is a very middle class organisation, composed chiefly of recruits from Western or else Muslim countries where they weren't exactly being persecuted for their religious views. Organisations like Hamas or Hezbollah might well be Islamic organisations, but their main focus is resisting what they perceive to be an occupying force - a nationalist rather than religious end.

Jonathan M

This is a complex issue, which is why I got annoyed with the book.

I don't agree that al Qaeda is a very middle class organisation. The vanguard of radical Islam is undeniably and robustly middle class and has been right back to the days of Nasser. But they also enjoy a broad coalition of cross-class support. You also have to factor into the roots of radical Islam the treatment of the early Islamists by the secular regimes in the Arab world.

Conversely, Hamas and Hezbollah are not in the least bit middle class. To characterise them as nationalistic organisations also strikes me as somewhat simplistic. Yes they have temporal concerns but then so do al Qaeda while the occupation of Palestine plays a much larger role in the world view of radical islam than a purely political issue of the Irsraelis occupying their land.

The problem is that all of this steps beyond the anti-colonialist logic of the book. MacLeod suggests that if you freeze religious institutions out of the political process then members of those institutions will turn to terrorism.

The basic anti-colonialist logic of poor + disenfranchised = terrorism is pretty simplistic in and of itself but the book simplifies this even further.

Nick

I haven't read the book, and I'm vastly oversimplifying of course, however I'm uncomfortable with the characterisation of Islamic terrorism as being monolithic, and with certain groups being lumped uncritically into that category. Nor do I think it's an entirely unrealistic idea that middle class Christians would turn to terrorism when faced with a degree of repression. In fact, I'd say the shift is more likely to occur in a group that was formerly influential and very recently disenfranchised than it would be in a people who've been fucked for generations.

Jonathan M

I'm not wedded to any particular model. I'm not even all that interested in whether or not the events in The Night Sessions are all that plausible (I don't think they are but YMMV), but I do think that in order to comment upon these kinds of matters you need a certain level of engagement with the different ideas.

Your views have to attain a certain level of sophistication and I think that that level increases with worlds that are more familiar to us.

My problem with the Night Sessions is that there is no complexity here and minimal engagement. Ken MacLeod might well be absolutely spot on in his understanding of the nature of terrorism, but if you can't convey that engagement through the text then you really should not be commenting on these kinds of matters directly.

Evan

Looking at it from a technical perspective, I wonder if a lot of the issues that you're talking about are caused by the overly close focus on the main police detective in the scotland branch of the story. I read the book a couple of weeks ago, but I seem to recall that he was the viewpoint character for the best part of the book, and as he isn't particularly well drawn and has a problematic relationship with religion, he may not have been the best one to illuminate the complexities of the situation without either major rewriting or endless info-dumps.

It strikes me, though, that near-future SF has never been particularly well done or popular. Your theory is a good articulation of why, I think. Perhaps there just isn't the room to balance the three elements that you need.

That said, it could very easily be argued that it was the spaceworker robots all along leading the religionists along the garden path to terrorism to achieve their own ends. It's more plausible an explanation than disenfranchisement, but it isn't clear enough that that's the case to say.

Nick

Yes, as I said I haven't read Night Sessions, but I'd say your broader point applies to Halting State and Black Man, which I have. Praying you're wrong about season 5 of the Wire, mind.

Jonathan M

Hi Evan :-)

Actually, that was the line of attack that I wound up not using in the review as while I've read a bit of crime fiction and am reading more at the moment, I wasn't as sure about it technically.

Essentially, a lot of crime fiction comments upon the world outside the characters by having very deep characterisation that involves the characters being deeply invested in the world around them. That way, you can focus on the small scale and still be commenting upon the large scale. It's a technique I think Gibson used in Neuromancer but pointedly didn't use in Spook Country.

By contrast, Ferguson is a very two-dimensional character. He feels regret about what he did during the times of repression but there's never any detail about what exactly went on. I mean, are we just talking stopping people from going to church? harassing the religious or people being disappeared because of their faith? the book's a bit nebulous on this and so it didn't feel real to me... regret is based upon specific actions, not "oh I was part of wide-scale harassment and oppression".

I think you're right that, had MacLeod focused more closely upon the main characters and invested them more in the world then he would have had room to explore the way in which the religious were oppressed, the reasons for people turning their back upon religion AND (via skulk) the mindset of the robotic AIs and a) how they felt about being demilitarised (an issue touched upon) and b) what their wider views were on the nature of the universe.

It's easy to lambast a book for weak characterisation but I think the characterisation here is evidence of a failure to come to grips with one of the most basic techniques of good crime fiction.

The best example of this is Massimo Carlotto's The Goodbye Kiss. It's a book that focuses incredibly closely on the main protagonist (it's a first-person narrative) but the story is told in such a way that because of what the character does and who he does it to, we get a great idea of the book's real target: The nature of Italian society and the fact that it's willing to let a complete sociopath get to the top as long as he lets people on his coat-tails and he looks nice in a suit.

Niall

Similarly, Morgan’s Black Man struggles to move beyond the political insight conveyed by the cartoon that inspired the book in the first place.

I don't think I've seen this cartoon -- where/what is it?

Jonathan M

Hi Niall :-)

This one :

http://homepage.univie.ac.at/horst.prillinger/blog/p3/jesusland.jpg

Niall

Ah, right! Thanks. I hadn't mentally filed that as a cartoon. I can sort of see your point, but (not surprisingly, I imagine ...) I think there's a lot more to Black Man than just that landscape.

Jonathan M

Hi Niall,

I agree that there's more to it and I think that Black Man is probably the best of these Near-future books as a result but I still think that there was room for the book to say more.

For example, the theme of masculine traits and the social construction of what is considered an appropriate set of characteristics could have been linked up much more effectively and a lot more could have been said about it.

Nasser Marghalani

with all due respect, but I am Nasser Marghalani and I am not the president of Egypt... Jamal Abdul Nasser was the one.
don't rely on Wikipedia Mr. SF diplomat....

Peace.

Jonathan M

My sincere (if amused) apologies. I shall modify the piece.

Nader

I've read MacLeod and Stross, but haven't got to those books yet.

I certainly think there's something to this "social uncanny valley" idea-as well as the fact that we are seeing those authors writing in this space now.

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